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T O P I C R E V I E WOxychickAre there any indications in natal charts of a dishonest nature? Hasn't anyone ever met someone who just seems to be inherently dishonest....does anyone know of any things to look for in a chart that might suggest this?------------------"What lies behind us and lies before us are small matters compared to what lies within us."-Ralph Waldo EmersonDonnaLook for squares of Mercury to Neptune. This usually causes them to not see the truth or to make up their own version of the truth. In Rex Bill's The Rulership Book liars are ruled by Mercury, Neptune and Pluto. DonnaOxychickHi Donna, Thanks for your reply! I ahve a question though. When you say "ruled by" do you mean people who's sun/asc. signs are ruled by those planets or people with strong Mercury/Neptune/Pluto influences?Hmm...and no wonder...one of the people on my mind has Mercury Square Neptune...------------------"What lies behind us and lies before us are small matters compared to what lies within us."-Ralph Waldo EmersonAselzionGreetings...The ancients also linked Mercury in evil aspect (square or opposition) to Saturn, Mars or the Nodes to liars. A conjunction (to these same points) could also be considered a bad aspect if Mercury was retrograde or out of his dignities. (in other words not in a sign that he rules {Gemini/Virgo}, or is exalted in {Virgo/Aquarius}.) Dignity also goes a bit further than that, but that is fairly advanced traditional astrology to get into in a short reply.Hope that helps.Peace and Magic...A OxychickHi Aselzion,Very interesting points! What does it mean however for a planet to be "exalted"?------------------"What lies behind us and lies before us are small matters compared to what lies within us."-Ralph Waldo EmersonAselzionOxy..Well, when a planet RULES a sign it is at home. It is powerful and able to freely express its nature. A Planet that is EXALTED is very well placed... sort of like being a special guest at a friend's house. You can still express yourself freely and are comfortable.. almost like a home away from home.Sun in ARIES is EXALTEDMoon in TAURUS is EXALTEDMercury in VIRGO is EXALTED or as the moderns say Mercury in AQUARIUS is EXALTEDVenus in PISCES is EXALTEDMARS in CAPRICORN is EXALTEDJupiter in CANCER is EXALTEDSaturn in LIBRA is EXALTEDThe transcendental planets don't fit into the ancient system of Essential Dignities. But some modern astrologers say that:Uranus in Scorpio is EXALTEDNeptune in Cancer is EXALTEDPluto in ??? is EXALTEDI don't think that the modern astrologers have fully made up their minds about where Pluto is EXALTED. Anyone have any ideas?Any planet that is in the opposite sign from the one that it RULES is said to be in its DETRIMENT. It doesn't express it's energies very freely, due to the incompatible nature of the sign. Kind of uncomfortable, like being in the room with an ex friend or lover with whom you are not on good terms. When a planet is found in the opposite sign from its EXALTATION, it is said to be in its FALL. Here it's sort of like not having your own home, and not having the money, freedom or time, to do what you want to do. So, you kind of have to work twice as hard to get half as much. Hope this helps. Make any sense?Blessings...A DonnaOxychick,No, I mean the planets and their aspects to each other are what rule. A person with these aspects will exhibit those traits.I worked with an ER doc who had Mercury square Neptune and almost everything out of his mouth was a falsehood. It was so frustrating. As an ER nurse, we take verbal orders constantly, I would repeat what he told me to do and he would say yes, then later he would say he never said that. It got to the point that I requested he write it down before I carried any of his orders out. Not exactly the thing to do in an emergency situation,On the other hand, honesty is ruled by Jupiter and secondarily by the Sun.Exaltation simply means a beneficial position by sign and degree of a planet where it functions well. DonnaCarlo MercyThanx Oxy for bringing this up.Donna, you don't mean to say it is a fact but rather a tendency for deceit? I mean is it not so (as is with everything) we should look at the whole picture? He (ER doc) might have had other placements which enhanced it. Same as some could have placements which lessens it.What to do you say? OxychickThanks Aselzion and Donna for the heap of info!!So, combining what everyone has said about Mercury, Neptune, Pluto, Jupiter and Gemini influences...and I'm looking at one person specifically...would all of these things in one chart contribute to a dishonest personality:(he is a Leo Sun, Libra Asc., Aries Moon)Mercury in Virgo Square Neptune in SagJupiter and Mars in GeminiVenus in Cancer Conjunct Jupiter in GeminiMercury in Virgo(he was a communications major in college) Square Mars in GeminiPluto in Libra Square MC in CancerNeptune in Sag opposite Mars in GeminiPluto in Libra opposite Moon in AriesAlso, Neptune in this chart is retrogradeDo houses matter in this case?This is really interesting-thanks everyone!------------------"What lies behind us and lies before us are small matters compared to what lies within us."-Ralph Waldo EmersonMercy I checked and found that one of my colleagues has Merc. square Nept. In fact there was one time last week he came in and told us that one student fell through the ceiling (on the first floor) after having climbed off a balcony in the hall of the school because his cap had fallen down. The student didn't know this ceiling was very thin. He stepped on it and fell through. As usual no one took my colleague seriously because he never is and always tells (funny or obscure) lies with a straight face. This he only does for fun, nothing really bad or intentional about it. But this time he WAS speaking the truth! It sounded so fictional that no one believed him plus the fact he always does this for fun.I do not know the details but the boy who fell down is fine. He has got some injuries.Tranquil PoetVery interesting.Happy DragonOxychickmaybe this link may help to understand Neptune aspects http://www.happydragon.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/Neptune_Sun.html methinks ther be a positive and negtive side to all the signs and aspects etc... i know a well respected ( for his honesty) lawyer with merc square to neptune .. may depend how one is aware of the influence and what one does with it .. i researched the nept influence as i was trying to get someone free of a heroin addiction ( they have Sun con. Nept. con Merc ... and apart from lying like there was no tomorrow .. they managed .. above all to delude themselves in all manner of ways ) AzalakshOxychick/Donna/Aselzion ~My ex was one of the most incredible bold-faced liars I have ever met in my life. But I don't see any of the telltale hard aspects you've mentioned. Here's his stats, what could it have come from? Could it actually also be attributed to environment/upbringing (he suffered a very abusive childhood)? Since dishonesty is a form of attention-seeking, and also a form of self-defense?planet sign degree house motion Sun Capricorn 10°06'25 05 direct Moon Capricorn 06°46'22 05 direct Mercury Capricorn 27°22'30 06 direct Venus Sagittarius 14°56'40 05 direct Mars Aries 13°33'55 09 direct Jupiter Libra 01°24'58 03 direct Saturn Sagittarius 09°16'45 05 direct Uranus Leo 05°57'44 12 retrograde Neptune Scorpio 02°17'34 04 direct Pluto Virgo 00°14'29 01/2 retrograde Pluto is technically near the end of house 1 and is interpreted in house 2. True Node Scorpio 28°28'10 04 retrograde Ascendant Leo 14°31'26 Thanks for any insights!'zalaPS: Aselzion ~ loved your Rules/Detriment & Exalted/Fall definitions!!!Tranquil PoetSomeone posted this on another astrology forum.although there is a very positive side to neptune, a mystical, dreamy, spiritual side....the part of Pisces ruled by Jupiter. Remember Pisces is a dual sign. I have known someone with a Mercury Neptune aspect that had difficulties with the above, but honesty is also strong in this individual. You can't judge someone just from one aspect, especially with an outer planet. The signs involved, the houses, the aspects, what the other planets are doing, it all adds up and each part of the equation is necessary to begin to add it up.I have also seen the Merc/Neptune aspect cause a confusion, cloudy thinking, inability to keep track of some things............spacing out so to speak.Great aspect for artistic temperaments, especially in Libra. of course Libra also rules relationships, so it could manifest in that department rather than the art (Venus rules Libra)sthenriI know two people with Mars opposite Neptune and both are very good liars, for themselves. But they won't lie for other people. Usually their reasons, are about substance abuse. It's only a bad lie if you can't see through it, and if you don't abuse drugs and know someone who does, then you can't see through it.The problem I have is loving and forgiving someone who has had a problem, I am still working on that one.I do know a Neptune conjunct Mercury and he is a good liar too, but more for others, at work. He is at home a very honest person.I have a tendency to be secretive myself with Mars opposite Mercury, but it's not evil! Unless, someone asks me to say something and I can't. I can't speak another person's words, which is frustrating.NatashaTaurus
------------------"What lies behind us and lies before us are small matters compared to what lies within us."-Ralph Waldo Emerson
Donna
Thanks for your reply! I ahve a question though. When you say "ruled by" do you mean people who's sun/asc. signs are ruled by those planets or people with strong Mercury/Neptune/Pluto influences?
Hmm...and no wonder...one of the people on my mind has Mercury Square Neptune...
The ancients also linked Mercury in evil aspect (square or opposition) to Saturn, Mars or the Nodes to liars. A conjunction (to these same points) could also be considered a bad aspect if Mercury was retrograde or out of his dignities. (in other words not in a sign that he rules {Gemini/Virgo}, or is exalted in {Virgo/Aquarius}.)
Dignity also goes a bit further than that, but that is fairly advanced traditional astrology to get into in a short reply.
Hope that helps.
Peace and Magic...
A
Very interesting points! What does it mean however for a planet to be "exalted"?
Well, when a planet RULES a sign it is at home. It is powerful and able to freely express its nature.
A Planet that is EXALTED is very well placed... sort of like being a special guest at a friend's house. You can still express yourself freely and are comfortable.. almost like a home away from home.
Sun in ARIES is EXALTEDMoon in TAURUS is EXALTEDMercury in VIRGO is EXALTED or as the moderns say Mercury in AQUARIUS is EXALTEDVenus in PISCES is EXALTEDMARS in CAPRICORN is EXALTEDJupiter in CANCER is EXALTEDSaturn in LIBRA is EXALTED
The transcendental planets don't fit into the ancient system of Essential Dignities. But some modern astrologers say that:
Uranus in Scorpio is EXALTEDNeptune in Cancer is EXALTEDPluto in ??? is EXALTED
I don't think that the modern astrologers have fully made up their minds about where Pluto is EXALTED. Anyone have any ideas?
Any planet that is in the opposite sign from the one that it RULES is said to be in its DETRIMENT. It doesn't express it's energies very freely, due to the incompatible nature of the sign. Kind of uncomfortable, like being in the room with an ex friend or lover with whom you are not on good terms.
When a planet is found in the opposite sign from its EXALTATION, it is said to be in its FALL. Here it's sort of like not having your own home, and not having the money, freedom or time, to do what you want to do. So, you kind of have to work twice as hard to get half as much.
Hope this helps. Make any sense?
Blessings...
No, I mean the planets and their aspects to each other are what rule. A person with these aspects will exhibit those traits.
I worked with an ER doc who had Mercury square Neptune and almost everything out of his mouth was a falsehood. It was so frustrating. As an ER nurse, we take verbal orders constantly, I would repeat what he told me to do and he would say yes, then later he would say he never said that. It got to the point that I requested he write it down before I carried any of his orders out. Not exactly the thing to do in an emergency situation,
On the other hand, honesty is ruled by Jupiter and secondarily by the Sun.
Exaltation simply means a beneficial position by sign and degree of a planet where it functions well.
So, combining what everyone has said about Mercury, Neptune, Pluto, Jupiter and Gemini influences...and I'm looking at one person specifically...would all of these things in one chart contribute to a dishonest personality:(he is a Leo Sun, Libra Asc., Aries Moon)
Mercury in Virgo Square Neptune in SagJupiter and Mars in GeminiVenus in Cancer Conjunct Jupiter in GeminiMercury in Virgo(he was a communications major in college) Square Mars in GeminiPluto in Libra Square MC in CancerNeptune in Sag opposite Mars in GeminiPluto in Libra opposite Moon in Aries
Also, Neptune in this chart is retrograde
Do houses matter in this case?
This is really interesting-thanks everyone!
maybe this link may help to understand Neptune aspects http://www.happydragon.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/Neptune_Sun.html
methinks ther be a positive and negtive side to all the signs and aspects etc... i know a well respected ( for his honesty) lawyer with merc square to neptune .. may depend how one is aware of the influence and what one does with it .. i researched the nept influence as i was trying to get someone free of a heroin addiction ( they have Sun con. Nept. con Merc ... and apart from lying like there was no tomorrow .. they managed .. above all to delude themselves in all manner of ways )
planet sign degree house motion Sun Capricorn 10°06'25 05 direct Moon Capricorn 06°46'22 05 direct Mercury Capricorn 27°22'30 06 direct Venus Sagittarius 14°56'40 05 direct Mars Aries 13°33'55 09 direct Jupiter Libra 01°24'58 03 direct Saturn Sagittarius 09°16'45 05 direct Uranus Leo 05°57'44 12 retrograde Neptune Scorpio 02°17'34 04 direct Pluto Virgo 00°14'29 01/2 retrograde Pluto is technically near the end of house 1 and is interpreted in house 2. True Node Scorpio 28°28'10 04 retrograde Ascendant Leo 14°31'26
Thanks for any insights!'zala
PS: Aselzion ~ loved your Rules/Detriment & Exalted/Fall definitions!!!
although there is a very positive side to neptune, a mystical, dreamy, spiritual side....the part of Pisces ruled by Jupiter. Remember Pisces is a dual sign.
I have known someone with a Mercury Neptune aspect that had difficulties with the above, but honesty is also strong in this individual. You can't judge someone just from one aspect, especially with an outer planet.
The signs involved, the houses, the aspects, what the other planets are doing, it all adds up and each part of the equation is necessary to begin to add it up.
I have also seen the Merc/Neptune aspect cause a confusion, cloudy thinking, inability to keep track of some things............spacing out so to speak.
Great aspect for artistic temperaments, especially in Libra.
of course Libra also rules relationships, so it could manifest in that department rather than the art (Venus rules Libra)
The problem I have is loving and forgiving someone who has had a problem, I am still working on that one.
I do know a Neptune conjunct Mercury and he is a good liar too, but more for others, at work. He is at home a very honest person.
I have a tendency to be secretive myself with Mars opposite Mercury, but it's not evil! Unless, someone asks me to say something and I can't. I can't speak another person's words, which is frustrating.
NatashaTaurus
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